Comments on: The state of our separation with the church http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/2008/12/21/the-state-of-our-separation-with-the-church/ Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:42:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: ChicagoLarry http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/2008/12/21/the-state-of-our-separation-with-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-111348 ChicagoLarry Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:22:36 +0000 http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/?p=760#comment-111348 Jerry, I would like to build on what you (and others) have already so well articulated by commenting about opinions. We must sometimes remind people that not all opinions are equal. Some are reasoned, others are silly. We respect people's right to hold any opinion (wise or foolish), but we must be judicious as to the respect we accord the opinions themselves. We often hear, "I have a right to my own opinion," as if that somehow legitimizes the opinion. Philosopher Mortimer Adler discusses the 3 "great ideas" we judge by (Truth, Goodness & Beauty), and the 3 we act on (Liberty, Equality & Justice). A good number of opinions, including many religious ones, fail to fare well when examined in the light of the principles behind these "great ideas." Rick Warren's opinions about gays are good examples. They may comport with majority opinion, and they may be sincerely held, but history presents many examples of an entire population holding opinions, quite sincerely, that were totally invalid. Surely no one would fault Obama for bringing disparate groups to the table. But the opening prayer at the inauguration is not "the table." It is a platform for symbolism, for setting tone, for pointing in a (different) direction. There are many ways to bring people to the table, and ample time to do it. I think the argument here is about whether the choice for this particular pedestal placement presents the wisest symbolism, the best tone, the right direction to point in. I think it doesn't, but I can't get apoplectic about it. Both sides have to roll with some punches. There may even be a silver lining—maybe we'll get a bigger bone tossed back to our side after all this. Like, maybe a femur, even! (I hope it's not "gays in the military," as I think we've already won that... don't want it to "use up" the bone card we're getting over the Warren thing!) As for picketing churches (or bars), I think it all depends on whether the church (or bar) is harming society. Whoever seeks to impose upon human beings a deprivation of liberty, equality or justice ought to be brought to task and held accountable whether their motivation is religious or secular. Bad opinions must not be allowed to masquerade as good ones when they hurt others. In practical terms, if religious people think a supernatural deity forbids him to marry certain classes of people, then let them knock themselves out complying. But to seek to impose such a thing on the public is another matter, and I would picket any church or bar that would do such a thing. And THAT, dear friend, is my rather extended opinion, which I subject to your judicious review. :-) The best of the Christmas season to you and yours, Jerry, and happy holidays to all your readers and listeners. Jerry, I would like to build on what you (and others) have already so well articulated by commenting about opinions. We must sometimes remind people that not all opinions are equal. Some are reasoned, others are silly. We respect people’s right to hold any opinion (wise or foolish), but we must be judicious as to the respect we accord the opinions themselves. We often hear, “I have a right to my own opinion,” as if that somehow legitimizes the opinion.

Philosopher Mortimer Adler discusses the 3 “great ideas” we judge by (Truth, Goodness & Beauty), and the 3 we act on (Liberty, Equality & Justice). A good number of opinions, including many religious ones, fail to fare well when examined in the light of the principles behind these “great ideas.” Rick Warren’s opinions about gays are good examples. They may comport with majority opinion, and they may be sincerely held, but history presents many examples of an entire population holding opinions, quite sincerely, that were totally invalid.

Surely no one would fault Obama for bringing disparate groups to the table. But the opening prayer at the inauguration is not “the table.” It is a platform for symbolism, for setting tone, for pointing in a (different) direction. There are many ways to bring people to the table, and ample time to do it. I think the argument here is about whether the choice for this particular pedestal placement presents the wisest symbolism, the best tone, the right direction to point in.

I think it doesn’t, but I can’t get apoplectic about it. Both sides have to roll with some punches. There may even be a silver lining—maybe we’ll get a bigger bone tossed back to our side after all this. Like, maybe a femur, even! (I hope it’s not “gays in the military,” as I think we’ve already won that… don’t want it to “use up” the bone card we’re getting over the Warren thing!)

As for picketing churches (or bars), I think it all depends on whether the church (or bar) is harming society. Whoever seeks to impose upon human beings a deprivation of liberty, equality or justice ought to be brought to task and held accountable whether their motivation is religious or secular. Bad opinions must not be allowed to masquerade as good ones when they hurt others. In practical terms, if religious people think a supernatural deity forbids him to marry certain classes of people, then let them knock themselves out complying. But to seek to impose such a thing on the public is another matter, and I would picket any church or bar that would do such a thing. And THAT, dear friend, is my rather extended opinion, which I subject to your judicious review. :-)

The best of the Christmas season to you and yours, Jerry, and happy holidays to all your readers and listeners.

]]> By: JW Richard http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/2008/12/21/the-state-of-our-separation-with-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-110967 JW Richard Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:28:56 +0000 http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/?p=760#comment-110967 I hear you on that. Thanks, Wendi! I hear you on that. Thanks, Wendi!

]]> By: WENDI http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/2008/12/21/the-state-of-our-separation-with-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-110965 WENDI Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:10:12 +0000 http://www.mandrakesocietyradio.com/?p=760#comment-110965 SPIRITUALITY SHOULD ALWAYS BE LEFT TO THE INDIVIDUAL TO DECIDE ON A PERSONAL LEVEL. WHILE I FEEL THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RELIGION, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT SOMETHING GOES TERRIBLY WRONG WITH SPIRITUALITY WHEN IT IS PLACED WITHIN THE CONFINES OF A CHURCH AND IT'S DOGMA. THE SPIRITUAL PRINCIPAL OF ACCEPTANCE SEEMS TO GET LOST SOMEHOW AT THAT CRUCIAL POINT, REPLACED BY BIGOTRY AND CONDEMNATION. I HAVE GREAT ADMIRATION FOR BARACK OBAMA AND HIS DESIRE TO BRING TO THE TABLE MANY DIVERSE VIEWPOINTS, BECAUSE WITHOUT HEARING ALL SIDES OF AN ISSUE, HOW CAN ONE TRULY CHOOSE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM? THOSE WHO CONDEMN HIM FOR THIS CHOICE ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE WHO HAVE CONDEMN OTHERS FOR THEIR CHOICES, WHETHER THOSE CHOICES BE RELIGION/SPIRITUALITY BASED OR PERSONAL LIFESTYLE BASED. WE ALL COULD BENEFIT FROM A MORE OPEN DIALOGUE OF THESE ISSUES. SO, I SAY "BRING IT ON" TO ALL OPINIONS AND THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO PUT THEIR BELIEFS IN THE LINE OF FIRE BY MAKING THEM PUBLIC. SPIRITUALITY SHOULD ALWAYS BE LEFT TO THE INDIVIDUAL TO DECIDE ON A PERSONAL LEVEL. WHILE I FEEL THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RELIGION, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT SOMETHING GOES TERRIBLY WRONG WITH SPIRITUALITY WHEN IT IS PLACED WITHIN THE CONFINES OF A CHURCH AND IT’S DOGMA. THE SPIRITUAL PRINCIPAL OF ACCEPTANCE SEEMS TO GET LOST SOMEHOW AT THAT CRUCIAL POINT, REPLACED BY BIGOTRY AND CONDEMNATION. I HAVE GREAT ADMIRATION FOR BARACK OBAMA AND HIS DESIRE TO BRING TO THE TABLE MANY DIVERSE VIEWPOINTS, BECAUSE WITHOUT HEARING ALL SIDES OF AN ISSUE, HOW CAN ONE TRULY CHOOSE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM? THOSE WHO CONDEMN HIM FOR THIS CHOICE ARE NO BETTER THAN THOSE WHO HAVE CONDEMN OTHERS FOR THEIR CHOICES, WHETHER THOSE CHOICES BE RELIGION/SPIRITUALITY BASED OR PERSONAL LIFESTYLE BASED. WE ALL COULD BENEFIT FROM A MORE OPEN DIALOGUE OF THESE ISSUES. SO, I SAY “BRING IT ON” TO ALL OPINIONS AND THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO PUT THEIR BELIEFS IN THE LINE OF FIRE BY MAKING THEM PUBLIC.

]]>